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Dr. Chan: What's it like moving from Boise, Idaho to Middlebury, Vermont? How can an outdoorsy lifestyle influence you to pursue a career in medicine? On this episode of "Talking U and Med Student Life," second-year med student, Joe, talks about rural medicine, why he ended up in Utah, and how to get started snowboarding in the great Utah mountains.

Welcome to another edition of "Talking U and Med Student Life." Fantastic guest today. Joe, how are you doing?

Joe: I am excellent. How are you?

Dr. Chan: I'm hanging in there, and we'll talk about that later. Living life in a pandemic. It's been interesting, difficult, and challenging, and beautiful all wrapped into one. All right, so Joe, what year are you now?

Joe: I am currently a second-year, MS2.

Dr. Chan: All right, second-year med student. And we're going to talk about what medical education looks like in a pandemic. But I want to go into a quick time machine. All right? So let's go in a time machine together and go back, back, back, back. So, Joe, what prompted you to become a doctor? What event in your life or were there a series of events, and how old were you? When did this start entering your brain?

Joe: Ah, sure. So I've always really been interested in science, and I sort of knew I wanted to do something in science probably starting in about third or fourth grade. But one of the real inciting events for me, and, you know, you read personal statements all day. And the thing that I talked about in my personal statement was, when I was 15, I was whitewater kayaking and a man dislocated his shoulder right in front of me. And one of the other members of our team was a wilderness first responder, and they kayaked over and reduced this man's dislocated shoulder while they were floating down the river next to each other. And so I immediately thought, "You know, that's a skill I want to have." And so I started with wilderness first responder as a wilderness EMT. I worked as an EMT. I did a bunch of wilderness sort of medicine-related things in college. And sort of every step of the way I wanted more and more knowledge, more and more skills. And fully pursuing medicine seemed like the perfect place for me.

Dr. Chan: Awesome. I mean, so a lot to unpack there. So this is back during high school, correct? You said you were 15?

Joe: Correct.

Dr. Chan: So college, where'd you end up, and how'd you pick that school?

Joe: Yeah. So I grew up in Boise, Idaho and I absolutely love Idaho, still go back every chance I can. But I wanted to try something a little different for college, and so I traveled out to New England, to Vermont, and I went to Middlebury College. And then while I was there, that afforded me a lot of opportunities to do some outdoor things, do a lot of wilderness, medicine-related stuff with teaching, with instructing rock climbing and kayaking, and things like that. And . . .

Dr. Chan: How was it going from Boise to Middlebury? That sounds like a big jump. Or wasn't that a big jump?

Joe: It was very different.

Dr. Chan: Yeah.

Joe: It was . . . Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it was interesting. I always say think of Boise as a pretty small town. I mean, I think currently it's about 200,000 people. The whole valley's got 500,000 or so. But Middlebury, Vermont, the college itself makes up about 3,000 humans and the town itself makes up about 6,000 humans. So it's the kind of place where the general store will say, "We close at around 5 p.m." or things like that. So you've got to come in a little early in case the owner is feeling like going home or you might not get your groceries.

Dr. Chan: Wow. And then, so when you went to Middlebury, was there like a premedical program, or did you start to waver, or like how did that go? How did your metamorphosis go during your undergraduate days?

Joe: Yeah, I started out as a physics major, but I knew that medicine was sort of my goal overall. We didn't have a premedicine, really, track. It was sort of you do whatever you're interested in, and as long as you check off enough of the boxes of which classes you need to take, then you were sort of granted the blessing of the premedical committee. And if you wanted to, you could do a committee letter or things like that. The ÈËÆÞÖгöÊÓƵ of Utah was at the top of my list when I was applying. And I knew that the ÈËÆÞÖгöÊÓƵ of Utah was not interested in committee letters. So it was nice that I had the option, but yeah, they had a group of people that could guide you if you needed assistance or needed direction. But I ended up graduating biochemistry major because it meshed a lot better with not only the premed requirements but of what I became interested in as I went through college.

Dr. Chan: How did you get all those necessary activities, like the research, like the community service? How did you do that at Middlebury?

Joe: Yeah. We had the distinct privilege of not having any graduate program, which sounds a little funny because I also did research at the U after my sophomore year working for a Ph.D. student in a chemistry lab. But being the only students on campus as undergraduates, it meant that when I pursued a research opportunity, I got to sort of be in charge of my own project working on Lyme disease. So they were all small labs, maybe three to five students. And it was 100% undergrad-driven. So it was a wonderful experience. I really loved it.

Dr. Chan: That's great. And then, you know, when you talk about Vermont, I also think about Ben & Jerry's ice cream. Do you have any stories to share? What is your favorite flavor?

Joe: Ooh, my favorite flavor of Ben & Jerry's is Half Baked. They were about, you know, 55 minutes north of us in Vermont, which means you had to pass by five or six creameries on your way there. But if anyone's from the East and they know of Maple Creemees, they'll know that that's really the best ice cream in Vermont. And we had it on tap at our college from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. every day.

Dr. Chan: So I guess it was so common it wasn't that unique to you. To me, it's like very unique out here, but I guess back there it was just like water. Like it was everywhere, right?

Joe: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you could hardly walk, you know, 100 yards without bumping into an ice cream dispensary.

Dr. Chan: Wow. And then, you know, you're hitting your senior year, you're looking at med schools. What was your strategy going in? What schools were you looking at, and how were you going to do that?

Joe: Sure, yeah. So being in Vermont and being sort of that . . . I guess about half of Middlebury students are from like the just outside of Boston, New York, Pennsylvania, that kind of area. And so all of my friends were really looking at schools in that area. And the few of us Westerners were sort of split up and didn't particularly know where to look. So I sort of looked all over the West, and being from Idaho without a program of our own when I was applying, I mean, Utah was by far the most attractive option. And mostly, I mean, from a financial perspective, from an outdoor-access perspective, Utah really checked all the boxes for me. But, you know, I applied everywhere and couldn't believe it when it worked out.

Dr. Chan: So Idaho technically does not have their own medical school. But ÈËÆÞÖгöÊÓƵ of Utah, ÈËÆÞÖгöÊÓƵ of Washington, through the WWAMI Program, do take Idaho residents. And we take 10 and they take 40. Did you apply to WWAMI? What were your thoughts about WWAMI? I mean, I'm just curious, Joe, like I've never had this conversation with you. How did you end up in Utah?

Joe: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so I definitely applied to WWAMI. And I have . . . I'm trying to think, I have at least four or five close friends who are at the WWAMI Program up in Moscow, Idaho. And yeah, I liked a lot of things about their program, but I think for me, the U is a more attractive option because it gave me a lot broader of options. I wasn't particularly sure of what kind of medicine I wanted to go into, whether it would be primary care or emergency. All I've done is emergency work in my life. And so I'm still leaning that direction.

But at the WWAMI Program, it felt a lot like they were ÈËÆÞÖгöÊÓƵ of Washington students who were sort of off on their own. It felt like they had a good strong sense of community with those, you know, 40 students living in and amongst each other in that same location. But it felt more like a satellite campus than a full-blown medical school the way that the ÈËÆÞÖгöÊÓƵ of Utah does, where it feels like we have all of these enormously beneficial resources right at our fingertips.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. I like how you said that, Joe. I think there's 125 medical students per class and there's 10 Idaho students. And I would argue the 10 of you are fully integrated into everything that the other students do to the point where I don't think people, unless you self-identify as from Idaho, people don't realize you're probably from Idaho unless you tell people, correct?

Joe: Exactly.

Dr. Chan: Yeah. And I think, yeah, we're a quaternary, tertiary care center and we just have a lot of opportunities. And our students get to have first access, first pass at all those activities. And yeah, I agree with you. Like I think WWAMI is a fantastic program. But they are based, the Idaho piece is based in Moscow. So yeah, I just think the two wonderful programs serving the state of Idaho. It's all good. So, all right.

So Joe, you get here, and then what was your impression? Because like let me frame this question. Like everyone has this conception of what med school is like, right? And I think that's born from the media or tales that are told around the dinner table. Everyone has an idea of what med school is like. But then you come here and then you start medical school. So what was that first semester like? Was it doable? Was it overwhelming? How would you describe your experience jumping from premed to med?

Joe: Sure. Yeah, so the sort of . . . the way that I like to think about it is there's all of the work that I did in undergrad where I was a biochemistry major, and so I was taking all of these biochemistry classes. And then I graduated, and I studied for the MCAT by doing a 10-week intensive course. And it felt like I was learning an entirely different side of medicine when I was studying for the MCAT. It felt like nothing I had actually learned in undergrad.

And then when I got to medical school, it felt like a whole other switch, where it felt like every time I had, you know, heard about some process when I was in undergrad or some process when I was studying for the MCAT, when I got to medical school and we approached those same topics, we would spend part of our time sort of getting everyone caught up on, oh, I don't know, like what the Krebs cycle is or something like that. But then we would always take it a step further, and you'd have to really, really be familiar with every single aspect of what was going into every single process we were learning about, even when we were doing that Foundations of Medicine, first six months to catch everyone up.

And I was mostly surprised at just how cursory of an understanding I actually had about so many topics before going to medical school and how much sort of work I had to put in to really understanding the nuances. But I felt personally like the first six months were difficult but doable. I had a strong group of people around me that I could study with and we could bounce ideas off of each other. But we could also, you know, really get outside, or exercise, or in some form almost every single day during my first year of medical school. So I was surprised at how much outdoor activity I was able to get in while simultaneously studying.

Dr. Chan: Was it hard, Joe, going from . . . And I'm just going to put my own projection out there. You're kind of big fish in little pond Middlebury because just being kind of at the top and just doing so well, and then you come to medical school and then everyone just knows . . . so smart, knows what they're doing. Was that a transition for you, or you felt you did that pretty well?

Joe: I think that when I was at Middlebury I was very much a small fish in a big pond as well.

Dr. Chan: Okay, okay. I'm just trying to use outdoor analogies.

Joe: Yeah, oh, absolutely. So I felt like when I got to the ÈËÆÞÖгöÊÓƵ of Utah that that sort of imposter syndrome really carried nicely through and I got to maintain my sensation of imposter syndrome through undergrad all the way into medical school. I'm constantly astounded at the students I get to spend time with.

Dr. Chan: How would you describe your imposter syndrome? Because it has different definitions depending on who you are. So how would you describe it?

Joe: Sure. So I feel like when you first get into any program, and I'd be fascinated to ask this question to a current MS1 because they're all seeing each other simply over Zoom, and it's a less personable space. But for me, when I arrived here, a lot of it was, holy cow, what did this person sitting next to me do in undergrad? Or realizing that they're, you know, 4 or 5 years older than me and have 17 more publications than I do and things like that.

So for me, it's the, when you get into Foundations of Medicine, you get into that first six-month course. Everyone's starting from a very different place, and we all had to, you know, be our own interesting person. But when you first arrive, it's really astounding to see how impressive sort of the accolades of your peers are. And then sort of as I've moved through, now as a second year, and especially with COVID when a lot of our opportunities that were, you know, in-person were shut down, or moved off, or things like that, and we're already starting to feel the pressure of taking Step 1, and thinking about our CVs, and our applications to residencies. It's seeing just how much your fellow students can be learning and also, you know, participating in their extracurricular activities while they're here, while they're in their second year.

Dr. Chan: Joe, you mentioned maintaining outdoor activities, or learning, or growing. And it sounds like you've struck a pretty good balance with, you know, life, and wellness, and academics, and personal time. What was your secret? How did you do that? Did you like map it out ahead of time? I mean, did you put it down on your schedule, or was it more spontaneous, you know, a couple of hours here and there? Like how did you do that?

Joe: Yeah, so one of my favorite expressions I ever heard in undergrad . . . And I've been so extremely privileged in where I've gone to school because I've always had outdoor access so immediately close by. But the sentiment that stuck with me most from a professor was, "If you do not have 30 minutes per day or in your day to do something for yourself, either physically outside or for your mental-emotional health, if you don't have 30 minutes in a day where you can sit down and do that, you need to take 60 minutes that day to do it."

And so there's sort of a point of diminishing marginal returns on studying for a lot of us. And I found pretty early on that if I got, you know, seven or eight hours of sleep every night, and I spent at least, you know, 30 minutes to an hour either walking or hiking in the foothills that come straight out of the medical school, or going to the climbing gym nearby, or things like that, if I took that time, I performed better and better than if I spent that hour, you know, re-reviewing notes from a lecture or something like that. I didn't actually perform better and I didn't retain anything better.

So I've tried to keep a really strong crew of people where we can sort of spontaneously say, "Hey, does anyone want to go, you know, climb in Big Cottonwood Canyon at 5 p.m. today?" And you'll always find one or two people who are willing to do that. I wish I was a more organized person who kept a tight-knit schedule to include that, but I absolutely know students who write in one-hour run at 4 p.m. and when their calendar goes off, they put on their shoes and go out.

Dr. Chan: Wow. Joe, that's fantastic. And I also know that, you know, like you mentioned, hiking, and walking, and I think you said rock climbing, I think you also have the skill of ski and snowboarding. So I'm curious, how long have you been a skier or a snowboarder?

Joe: Sure.

Dr. Chan: And yeah, just like what's your favorite resort here? And I think another great selling point of Utah, just access to a lot of different areas where you can do that.

Joe: Yeah. I don't know that I can say that the ÈËÆÞÖгöÊÓƵ of Utah has the best skiing of any medical school in the world because I don't know enough about the world, but in the United States, I think you'd be hard-pressed to make an argument that there's better skiing anywhere else. Yeah, so I started skiing when I was two years old. And in my family, it wasn't really an option. You were a skier, and you were a skier at age 2. And so I grew up racing a little bit, and when I was 15, or I guess, yeah, right when I was about 15, I was diagnosed with osteochondritis dissecans, which is a bone disorder. And we'll get to learn all about it in a couple of months here in skin, muscle, bone, and joint. But basically, I had to take about five years off of skiing, almost six years off of skiing because I was getting several knee surgeries to sort of reconstruct the bone at the end of my femur. And then luckily, about halfway through college I got to get back into it.

And yeah, so my favorite resorts here in Utah, this year we keep an Excel doc, a Google Excel doc called the All-Class Shredders List. And it's everyone who's interested in skiing writes in their phone number, they write in their email, and they write in what pass they're getting. So I know that last year it was about 70% Ikon Pass and, boy, about 30% split amongst the Epic Pass, and things like that. I was in Ikon Pass last year, and I think as of either later today or tomorrow I'm going to be buying my Ikon Pass as well. But for the ÈËÆÞÖгöÊÓƵ of Utah students, the price is marked down from $1,200 to $400. So it's hard to not take advantage of that. But in terms of favorites, I don't think I can confidently choose a favorite. I got unlimited days of solitude last year through the Ikon, so I certainly went there the most but . . .

Dr. Chan: So Joe, I don't even know what they call them, are you like a quadruple, Olympic, black diamond skier? Is that your level? Is that your . . .

Joe: I will say that I am very comfortable on black diamonds and comfortable on double black diamonds. But that being said, I am maybe the 15th best skier in the MS2 class. So there's a . . .

Dr. Chan: I love how you phrase it, yes. You cannot humblebrag, I will humblebrag for you. All right? That's awesome, Joe. So what if . . .

Joe: There are . . .

Dr. Chan: What if you're a brand-new . . . you know, what if there's a med student listening and they want to get interested in skiing. Like what would be some good, you know, equipment and maybe a good place to start out?

Joe: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Obviously, our time machine isn't real. We can't go back to when they are two years old to get that experience you got. Like so how would like a 20-something-year-old start?

Joe: Sure, absolutely. So yeah, we have . . . I can't remember what the actual number is, but I think we have 60 students or something in our class, the MS2 class on the All-Class Shredders List who do ski already or snowboard already. But we had about five or six students who started skiing last year. And all of them, they skied together in a group, and they would ski with their more experienced friends and get their lessons that way. But we had a lot of students who went from either never having skied before or not having skied in 10 years to being really confident skiers on, you know, the intermediate and advanced ski terrain.

One of the things I love about the ÈËÆÞÖгöÊÓƵ of Utah is the rec center has gear rentals. And so you can rent skis from either the ÈËÆÞÖгöÊÓƵ of Utah rec center for a day or a weekend. And I think it's $25 for a day and $40 for a weekend for the ski boot, pole setup. So if you're interested in learning and you have some fellow MS1 students who come in with you and, you know, they're your good friends that you've already made and you want to run flashcards on the chairlift, which is absolutely a thing I recommend doing with your friends, then yeah, it's about $25.

And lessons, you can get access to professional lessons through Solitude. I was looking into this recently for a different friend, and it was $75 a day for college students on top of the pass for the day, which I think is in the $75 to $100-range. So skiing has always been a very expensive and exclusive sport. And I think that having the $25 rentals through the ÈËÆÞÖгöÊÓƵ of Utah makes it a little more accessible to people than having to do, you know, the $125 rentals from the resort.

But yeah, there's a few different options for renting equipment at the U for pretty reasonable prices. You can do seasonal rentals as well. There's a couple of companies in town that do seasonal rentals on skis. So yeah. My biggest recommendation is if you've got that study group and you've got some experienced skiers in your group, and they're willing to teach you, then I can't recommend enough that you reach out to them and reach out to your whole class and see who else is new to skiing and try and get a little . . . a crew together. It's a great community, and it'll be interesting to see what COVID does this year. We're all on the edge of our seats on that.

Dr. Chan: I love how you mentioned doing Anki cards on the ski lift. I did not know that was a thing, but my hats off to all of you who are doing that. That's like combining a lot of . . . Your generation, the ability that you guys have to multitask, it's amazing. So that's so cool.

And then, Joe, do you have like a favorite memory or a memorable time when you were skiing or boarding? Like something that just stood out to you, like this crystallized beautiful moment where it was like epiphanous and you hit nirvana or a scary situation where it got resolved. I'm just curious, because you've been in the backcountry doing all sorts of difficult hills, and yeah, so I'm just curious like if you have any memories you can share.

Joe: Oh, man. There's two moments that come to mind. One is more on the idea of Anki and studying, but it was, I was up with two fellow students [Stany and Alli 00:25:07] and we were sitting on the chairlift in between runs. And it was, you know, a Sunday before a Monday exam. And we couldn't resist, because I think we'd gotten 60 inches of snow that week or something like that. And so we had to go out even though we had a test on Monday. And we talked through questions on the chairlift of what we thought we were going to get quizzed on and what we thought we needed to understand, and filled in the memory gaps. And the next day during the test, there was somewhere between 6 and 10 questions that were exactly covering the topics we talked about on the chair. But I think the more salient moment, like one of the happiest skiing moments I've ever had was last year at the end of the year, at the end of the first semester, this is obviously pre-COVID, we had 31 of us MS1s go down to Jackson Hole, Wyoming. And Jackson Hole is on the Ikon Pass. So we just rounded up 31 students who had the Ikon Pass. We rented three houses in Jackson Hole. And I think everyone, overall, for lodging and food, we cooked all of our meals together for five days. I think the average . . . I think the price that every student paid was $105 for 5 days' worth of skiing, food, lodging in Jackson Hole. But there was one day where we had all 30 of us out on the slopes together riding as one giant group, and it was one of the coolest things I've ever seen, to see, you know, these 30 students that were sort of struggling together through academics but then also getting to get out and ski together.

Dr. Chan: Joe, that's beautiful. I love that image. Maybe when we post this pod, we can like throw up an image. I want to throw up an image of that, and then maybe you and your awesome beer that you're rocking.

Dr. Chan: All right, last question, Joe, we've talked a little bit about it, but pandemic, like because it was at the very end of first year, right? And then things started to kind of go . . . you know, the announcement came out. Like how was it from your perspective as a med student? And as a follow-up, like what's it like to be a med student during a pandemic, and what does your day look like? So I'm just going to throw that out there. I want to hear your perspective.

Joe: Yeah. It's been very interesting. And it's been varied as well, which has been sort of one of the things that we, as students, do talk about is how different units feel different. I think that when you're in Foundations of Medicine, it's all about getting as much time talking between students to make sure that everybody's on the same page of how well you need to understand something, how in-depth, and what nuances you think the professors care about or things like that, things you think you should care about.

And then once you move into the second semester of your first year, which is when COVID hit for us, you're in the host and defense. We were in what's called host and defense, which is the bugs and drugs course. And that one is just so much more memorizing that it felt more like an individual course. So it felt more like, you know, you're watching your videos, you're watching these things. You're running your hundreds of cards a day to try to get all of these little facts, you know, nailed into your brain. So there's a little bit less of a student community during that.

But when COVID hit, it was, you know, March 13th. That Friday, the 13th, I actually had a hernia repair that day, and I was completely laid up for about six weeks after it. So that was the first day we also shut down classes, which was, you know, perfect because I didn't have to come into school but also very socially isolating. But when we switched, the Monday after they shut down classes unexpectedly, we had . . . I think we missed out on one hour's worth of lecture. And the professors seamlessly transitioned to Zoom. I was really, really impressed. We basically lost zero time, we lost zero material with host and defense. When we finished this summer and we came back, it felt a little bit like there was still so much hope that we would be able to be in person that the course wasn't as well established for the second-years to be ready for online. So it was a little grating for the first couple of weeks to try and suss out exactly how we were going to be maneuvering through COVID and our second year of med school.

And I think a lot of us felt really isolated from a summer apart and not feeling comfortable getting together with our big study groups that we did previously. And then sort of as this second year has gone on, we've sort of come to accept more and more and more that it's most important to stay distant, to stay online. But yeah, it was interesting that the spring when that massive change happened it wasn't that bad, but then I think a lot of us, really mentally and emotionally, struggled. I know personally, I mentally and emotionally struggled with the fall semester more than the spring. Yeah.

Dr. Chan: And then, is it every single day Zoom? Or like what does a typical week look like now in the middle of a pandemic for a second-year med student?

Joe: Yeah. So right now we have asynchronous and we have synchronous. So it's usually, for this current unit, we're currently in CR and R, which is like the circulation and renal and respiratory. And that has mostly, most of the days has been asynchronous. So, you know, you just click on and watch the prerecorded lecture whenever you're interested. But then maybe two or three days a week we're in-person. We're digitally, you know, synchronous, where we'll all Zoom in at the same time and we'll have a team-based learning or a case-based learning. And they'll break us up into small groups and things like that. So that's usually like Wednesday mornings, Fridays. And then actual in-person activities when we're learning our clinical skills on Wednesday afternoons. We've been in-person probably just over 50% of the time. So that's from maybe 1 p.m. to 5 p.m. on Wednesdays every other week for the last, you know, four months we've been in-person. But everything else is Zoom. And for . . . Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Oh, go on. Sorry.

Joe: Oh, I was going to say for a person like me who, you know, I've got, I certainly have some attention deficit problems. And sitting in front of a computer for hours a day is sort of the antithesis to the way that I like to learn. But I found ways to, you know, set my computer up on a dresser or a desk or something like that and, you know, jump around my apartment, my living room, and try and run cards, and things like that, keeping my body moving. But yeah, I am ready to be back in person when that day arises.

Dr. Chan: Do you like the synchronous or asynchronous model better, Joe?

Joe: I think the asynchronous model works better for me because if I'm sitting in front of a computer for eight hours a day watching a lecture, probably about every 15 minutes my brain will wander off. And if it's a synchronous session and I just missed, you know, 20 seconds of material, then I desperately am lost or I don't know exactly what I needed to know from that. But if it's asynchronous, I can pause. I can back it up 30 seconds, and I can restart, or I can pause, stand up, get a drink of water, back it up 30 seconds, and restart. So, for me, the asynchronous works much better because I can pause, I can make sure I'm really understanding what they're saying. Sometimes I have to repeat a section four or five times just to figure out what the professor is trying to emphasize there.

Dr. Chan: Joe, I love it. It sounds like you're adaptable, resilient. And I think you, the faculty, the students, I think everyone's trying to do the very best job they can in really extraordinary, challenging, unprecedented circumstances. And it sounds like it's coming together.

Joe: Yeah.

Dr. Chan: Fits and starts though, fits and starts.

Joe: Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Chan: Joe, we're almost out of time. I guess my last question is what advice do you have for anyone listening out there who is thinking of applying to medical school? What would you say to them? What counsel would you give them?

Joe: Yeah. I think the most important thing for me is to take your time. I took two years off after graduating and I absolutely loved it. I spent time working. And actually, I was talking to a professor yesterday during a small synchronous session. He shot me a message in the Zoom Chat privately asking what my prior experience with that topic was because we were talking about pulmonary embolisms. And I was an emergency department scribe for almost two years. And things like that, things that are extremely clinically relevant to scribing, you just excel at when you're an actual medical student. And so I can't recommend to people enough that they, you know, take a breather after undergrad, work a job, you know, build up some money, and be able to have a ski pass, be able to do things like that. Be able to have some sort of different nonacademic life experiences before you get here. And if you have the opportunity to scribe, that was the most helpful preparation for medical school I've ever had.

Dr. Chan: Great. Joe, well, I appreciate coming on the pod. We'll have to have you come back and share more of your adventures as you continue to go through our medical school. It sounds like you're doing really, really well.

Joe: Oh, absolutely. It was wonderful to talk to you.

Dr. Chan: All right. Thanks, Joe.

Joe: Hey, have a good day.